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50 Percent
Last month, Ripard Teg of Jester's Trek fame, posted a Quote of the Week where he was commenting on the tactics of Rooks and Kings.

Quote:When Rooks and Kings are willing to fight you, it's a good sign they have something big up their sleeves. Fighting them is only suicide unless you have absolutely overwhelming superiority, that eschews any difference of tactics.

It touched me, because similar things have been said about Art of War Alliance.

Quote:If you see AWA on the field, and they aren't running away, they probably know something you don't know.

So when Ripard invited people to discuss this, I couldn't help but join in. We had a little discussion on the killboard culture.

Kaeda Maxwell Wrote:It's what the culture of killboard statistics breeds.

You reap what you sow. If being 'elite' in a game means that you can kill without losses (resulting high kb efficiency) people will either perfect tactics that allow them to kill large fleets with small fleets safely (what RnK does).
Or the perfect tactics that allow them utterly outnumber/overwhelm their opponents (what most of 0.0 does).
Neither being available in a situation, they choose not to fight, because if you do and loose the greater communities consensus will be that 'you lost'. So it's hard to fault RnK for it.

Very few people in EVE these days care more about fights then about winning, such is the way of things vOv

"If being 'elite' in a game means you can kill without losses". I like where this is going. You see, I have a problem with people who have high efficiencies who claim that they are out there just looking for "good fights" but will relentlessly kill new players that wander into "places they should know better not to go into". I have problems with people who think that Eve should be about fair fights, yet have mission runners and miners among the their kills.

Bren Genzan Wrote:No pilot with an efficiency over 50 percent can say that all they are looking for is a good fight. For most of us, regardless of the trappings of honor or fun that we try to wrap it in, a good fight is one that we win. The trick is getting the other guy to fight on your terms, so you can take his ship and not lose yours in the process.

If I look at it from RnK's POV, they have just gotten to the point where the "good fights" are not as important to them as "epic kills". The game they are playing today is trapping and totally annihilating their opponents. They aren't playing the game with you. They are not here for your entertainment. This isn't friendly competition.

They have decided to play a game by their standard, and are no longer willing to play Eve your way.

You are not opponents, you are prey. Prey don't get killmails.

Good for them. If that's the game they want to play, I wholey support it. I won't judge them from my standard.

Personally, I don't understand how anyone can sit on a Titan and wait for the a bait Heavy Dictor to land in a bubble, just so 20 BCs can jump in and maybe kill one cruiser, but there are guys who do it. That's their game. Personally I don't like bashing structures, but some people love it. Hell, I don't really even like roaming, but I'll do it with my friends. Flying Battleships is null sec is silly. And I wouldn't even know what a supercap was if White Noise and Pandemic Legion had not dropped Aeons and Nyxs on my cruiser gangs.

Like I said before, we're all probably not playing the same Eve.

Sooner everyone realizes that, happier we'll all be.

If Eve were populated by people who could agree to rules of conduct for fights, then we would have fair fights. But so long as Eve PvP is non-consensual, there is no such thing as fair, or even.

Kaeda Maxwell Wrote:I mostly agree, with you here, but it's real easy to get positive efficiency while still truly just caring about fights.

The way killboards work is fundamentally flawed in that sense.
If I was to engage your cruiser gang with my rifter gang and say my 15 rifters (at 10 mil a piece) manage to kill 3 of your cruisers (at say 25 mil a piece) while you kill 15 rifters (150m) and loose 3 cruisers (75m) and you'll be ahead on the ISK war for the fight, any individual pilot in my rifter gang that got on at least 1 cruiser mail is now ahead 15 million for his personal statistics despite having lost the fight. And if the first cruiser to die only got onto 2 rifter mails before he died he's now 5 million behind for his stats, despite being on the winning side...

Because killboards don't divide the value of a kill by the number of pilots on the mail the system is fundamentally broken. If 100 people kill a 2 billion carrier the total value of stuff killed on eve-kill effectively goes up by 200 billion because 100 pilots get 2 billion added to their total killed value.

Basically isk efficiency tells you nothing about how good a pilot is. Every F1 pressing sov 0.0 drone that got on 1 titan probably has a better efficiency then a solo pilot who has 500 solo kills in frigates vs other frigates to his name even if said solo pilot wins 4 out of 5 fights.

Karbox Delacroix Wrote:I am curious as to how you chose "50 percent." For example, it is not obvious to me that a skilled frig pilot loses half of his engagements.

Bren Genzan Wrote:@Karbox: 50 percent assumes that the average pilot or fleet you fight is As Good As You. If that is the case, you should win as much as you lose. Some pilots should be better, you'll lose more to them. Some should be worse, you'll beat more of them. But if you take all fights, statistically it should always balance out.

Unless, of course, you're choosing the fights that you're pretty sure you'll win, and avoiding the ones you pretty sure you'll lose.
There's my real point. I undock, I see a ship of the same class I am, I get in a fight. Flip a coin.

Who does that? No one.

Bren Genzan Wrote:@Kaeda: I agree, for the most part. The killboard mechanics overemphasize the isk value of a kill and not the skill and experience of the opponent you fight.

We aren't going to fix that problem, too many people will cry, especially the ones who lose ships flying solo or small gang and then repair their killboards getting kills in small or large gangs.

There is value in the killboard, but it's not in the kills.

And if the value of the killboard isn't in the kills, where do you think the value is? No one asked me, but I'll tell you guys cause I like you:

It's in the losses, of course.
Fly Safe or Fly Dangerous, Just Don't Fly Stupid.
Eve Killboard - East US TZ
In the business of maintaining the high cost of implants since 2009.

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50 Percent - by Bren Genzan - 12-09-2012, 01:31 PM

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